Is anyone forced to run E10 yet?

[westexasrepublic]

I was talking to my Ranching buddies over at the stock yards and they said expect the sale for each head of cattle to be increased by 50 - 100% by end of summer! BUY YOUR STEAKS NOW! WHILE THEY ARE CHEAP! LOL

[BlackTigerSE]

Originally Posted by BigMikeLV

The increased production of E85 has done more damage than good. as a clean air alternative fuel its actually increased air pollution.

Reason: increased E85 consumption/production = Increased corn production = increased harvesting = increased Diesel fuel consumption = increased gasoline consumption = increase of needed diesel and gasoline = larger demand on crude oil to power the machines and processes to create E85 = more pollution.

The idea to create a cleaner fuel to help clean up the pollution actually creates more pollution it self. not to mention greatly reduces food supplies.

Brazil is actually cutting down parts of there rainforest to accamodate more sugarcane farming...Which really sucks...

The process of making ethanol from sugarcane plants is not that bad.

I am on the edge about your "Reason:" Can you back that up?

Originally Posted by Mainerunr

I've run a few tanks of it. Generally when you see it up here, the gas station has that and only that.

My notes show about 1mpg decrease in mpg's when I run it but it's only been a few random tanks and my mileage can vary that much week to week anyway depending on where and how I've driven. That said, E10 does contain less energy than regular gasoline so it makes sense that you will see a decrease in mileage.

Every study I've ever seen on E85 shows a significant decrease in mpg's (this on vehicles that will run either fuel) and, for those octane freaks, it is worth noting that ethanol has a higher octane content than gasoline (and to recap, it also contains less energy and results in lower mpg's).

Exact Low Energy Content of Ethanol (as a caveat, I do not believe everything I read on the net and didnt really look at this one that closely)

Search for Cars that don't need gas (should be reliable, government data...the same government that wants us using ethanol for some reason)

Chemistry/Scientists has jumped on top of it. They are currently figuring out how to get more energy out of ethanol so our SUVs can run on less.

[BigMikeLV]

Just bits of information here and there. No way the government will come out with that. Its common logic if you think about. What don't you understand? Its not like they Stopped producing gasoline. they just added another fuel which increases the workforce demand. this logic says increase consumption and supply of the fuels they need to process the one they are making. You always SPEND more energy/power to make enegry/power. Unless they actually DECREASE the amount of gasoline/diesel that they are producing and offset that difference with E85 or equivalent then everything else increases. Its the idea of having a full glass of water. if you add more it over flows and requires more glasses to hold the water, but if you take some water out and then add more to it... there is no extra glass needed to support it.


If that logic helps!

[jerryp58]

Originally Posted by BigMikeLV

The increased production of E85 has done more damage than good. as a clean air alternative fuel its actually increased air pollution.

Reason: increased E85 consumption/production = Increased corn production = increased harvesting = increased Diesel fuel consumption = increased gasoline consumption = increase of needed diesel and gasoline = larger demand on crude oil to power the machines and processes to create E85 = more pollution.

The idea to create a cleaner fuel to help clean up the pollution actually creates more pollution it self. not to mention greatly reduces food supplies.

I've heard that it takes 1 gal of fossil fuel to create 1.3 gal of ethanol; so you are getting a little more fuel out than you're putting in. they estimate they can eventually create 10 gal of ethanol from 1 gal IF they can improve the processes like they think they can.

But, subtract from that Mainerunr's valid point that you get less energy yield out of the same gallon of ethanol than you do from gasoline (not sure how much less) and maybe we're breaking even.

Personally, I still think ethanol is worth producing. Unless the TV articles are BS, Brazil seems to be a real success story. They've essentially broken themselves from their dependency on fossil fuel. So, if the oil companies want to compete there, they have to lower their prices since they finally have some competition

As far as increased food prices, I saw a POOR story on the NBC nightly news the other night that said after taking all of the ethanol production factors into consideration, they estimate that ethanol production has contributed to 33% of the increase in food prices. BUT, THEY DIDN'T SAY WHAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE OTHER 67%. Was it the rising cost of oil? If so, ethanol may actually be keeping the price of food down.

Of course, maybe the COMPRESSED AIR CAR is the way to go.

[Mainerunr]

Originally Posted by BlackTigerSE

Brazil is actually cutting down parts of there rainforest to accamodate more sugarcane farming...Which really sucks...

The process of making ethanol from sugarcane plants is not that bad.

I am on the edge about your "Reason:" Can you back that up?



Chemistry/Scientists has jumped on top of it. They are currently figuring out how to get more energy out of ethanol so our SUVs can run on less.

OK, I'm a mechanical engineer and I can tell you that the internal combustion engine is only so efficient. they may be trying to get more out of ethanol so we can burn less but they've been trying to do that with gasoline for years and where has it gotten us? I can remember cars in the 80's gettiing the same or better gas mileage than econoboxes get now (they also had a lot less power). ethanol contains less energy than gasoline so, by default, you will burn more of it to do the same amount of work unless you can burn it more efficiently...problem is, the internal combustion engine that burns gasoline is the same as the one we're using to burn ethanol (change a few parts that ethanol destroys) so by default it isnt going to be more efficient.

Now, if we could tune an engine for ethanol only, we may see a slight (<5%) increase in mpg's when running on ethanol but no more than that. one benefit to ethanol is that as it is a higher octane fuel, you can run higher compression (which we are not doing since we just change $20 worth of parts and call it E85 compatible).

In the end, back to your claim that 'they're on it'....no, they're not...at least not any more than they have been in the past.

In the end, we need to find an alternate fuel source...preferably one that isnt food. The other issue that I have is that the more 'waste' that we turn into fuel, the less 'waste' that rots and replenishes our soil...how long until we run into massive food shortages because the soil is barren?

[mattloxfl]

Well it appears I've started a crap storm, I was just wondering if anyone noticed any difference between E10 and Regular Unleaded in terms of MPG's and HP's. From what I understand its less than a 5% decrease in mileage. I can handle that, although I don't think it should be forced upon the people of a state, it should be Laze' Fare and up to the free market. Plus it makes no sense to ship ethanol from the mid-west to Florida. When the Gulf refineries are much closer.

[jaf06se]

Before I put my new tires on I was getting about 18-19mpg. I'll find out what it is with the new tires this weekend when I go out of town. I run E-10 all the time cause it's cheaper than regular.

[Mainerunr]

Originally Posted by jaf06se

Before I put my new tires on I was getting about 18-19mpg. I'll find out what it is with the new tires this weekend when I go out of town. I run E-10 all the time cause it's cheaper than regular.

probably subsidized there, same price as regular here, in fact, if they have it, that's all they have, you want something else, go to another station.

[jaf06se]

Originally Posted by Mainerunr

probably subsidized there, same price as regular here, in fact, if they have it, that's all they have, you want something else, go to another station.

Yeah, up here in IA at about every station there is reg, super(E-10), E-85, and diesel, at some there is premium If I need or want premium I go to BP cause the always have it and their's is better and higher octane.

[ssb752]

Originally Posted by mattloxfl

Well it appears I've started a crap storm, I was just wondering if anyone noticed any difference between E10 and Regular Unleaded in terms of MPG's and HP's. From what I understand its less than a 5% decrease in mileage. I can handle that, although I don't think it should be forced upon the people of a state, it should be Laze' Fare and up to the free market. Plus it makes no sense to ship ethanol from the mid-west to Florida. When the Gulf refineries are much closer.

I have documented my usage for years (business). E10 costs me 7-10% consistently in the two vehicles that I closely track. At $3.50 per gallon, it have to be 25 cents per gallon less just to break even.

I'm in the Farm Belt and years ago E10 was promoted as a way to help the farmer. That was when corn was $2.50 & soybeans $5. (today it's $5 & $12) A good friend of mine runs E85 in his new Silverado. Can't wait to get rid of it. Costs only a little less and gets 10mpg. Biodiesel? A large plant was going into my home town. It's about 20% built. Stopped this winter due to the price of beans and there are no plans to restart building in the near future.