Gas conversions

[Martin from Downunder]

UMM we are kinda talking about Diesel engine being converted to run with gas at the same time and not a petrol engine !!!

[AU-D40]

(finding this quite good reading)

[Martin from Downunder]

I think this is a good topic for anyone thinking about taking on the D-Gas or Diesel-Gas or Eco Shot one thing is for sure they all claim the same thing More power and better economy, Does it really matter how this is achieved as long as the end result is the same???

I will be installing the D-Gas system and I will tell it the way I see it warts and all, Pictures of the install to final fitment and in time the Dyno printout.
I could leave my Steinbauer unit in and get even more power and torque. BUT how much more does one really need?

I'm doing the install to offset the rising price of diesel fuel and if I can get the same power that I got with the Steinbauer unit and have better economy than the stock D40 it will be happy days for me and all
Time will tell but one thing is for sure smoother better power should be the outcome

Do we have any D40's here that have done one of these conversions?

[Tweak'e]

Originally Posted by Martin from Downunder

UMM we are kinda talking about Diesel engine being converted to run with gas at the same time and not a petrol engine !!!

orginal post was on petrol lpg conversion. looks like its gotten a little hijacked.

i wonder if D-GAS has ever looked at petrol + lpg (ie burn both at the same time).

i was taking to one of the mechanics in town. one of his customers as a V6 holden with lpg conversion. he recon the difference in econmy was to small.
his reasoning was that the motor is tuned very well for petrol, they don't run all that well on lpg. it would be better if dedicated lpg and tuned for it ie timing, cams, compression etc.
just something to keep in mind.

Originally Posted by Martin from Downunder

I think this is a good topic for anyone thinking about taking on the D-Gas or Diesel-Gas or Eco Shot one thing is for sure they all claim the same thing More power and better economy, Does it really matter how this is achieved as long as the end result is the same???

I will be installing the D-Gas system and I will tell it the way I see it warts and all, Pictures of the install to final fitment and in time the Dyno printout.
I could leave my Steinbauer unit in and get even more power and torque. BUT how much more does one really need?

Do we have any D40's here that have done one of these conversions?

d-gas and eco-shot are same thing. not to be confused with ecoshot overseas.

its not just that they do it different it that one will perform better. i just don't see the point in spending a lot for a basic system when a more advanced/better system would give better results for not much more $$.

i don't know anyone with a D40 thats done it. a few guys on the AU patrol forum have. personly i think its risky doing it on a variable turbo motor, especialy if the system injects lpg according to boost.
be interesting to see how it goes

[Martin from Downunder]

LOL hi-jacked maybe but I did start the "D-Gas my D40" and got no takers so here we are LOL

All the Petrol LPG vehicle that I have worked on over the years, all had one thing in common less power slightly better but not much more economy (but gas is cheaper) Why is that? One main factor that aids the gas in diesel engines would surly have to be the 22/1 engine compression, you inject more diesel then you would a petrol engine and make a bigger bang so to speak hence better torque figures from a diesel engine v petrol. sure you can add more boost to a petrol engine and get some results that way, My D40 2.5TD at max gives me 20pb boost and here I was thinking that 5 to 10pb would be ample just goes to show how far the engine refinement has come over the years

Originally Posted by Tweak'e

d-gas and eco-shot are same thing. not to be confused with ecoshot overseas.

eCo-Shot and eco-gas are not the same two different makers they are two completely different systems

However D-Gas and Eco-Gas are the same system

Originally Posted by Tweak'e

personly i think its risky doing it on a variable turbo motor, especialy if the system injects lpg according to boost.

According to boost that the ECU within works on wasn't it both sides of manifold pressures?
Dont forget the D40 engine still has boost at idle unlike the D22 engine so you could say the D-gas does inject at idle



This also make for a good read click here

[Tweak'e]

Originally Posted by Martin from Downunder

eCo-Shot and eco-gas are not the same two different makers they are two completely different systems

However D-Gas and Eco-Gas are the same system

oops.....my bad. got the names all mixed up.

According to boost that the ECU within works on wasn't it both sides of manifold pressures?

??????

[Martin from Downunder]

Snip>> According to boost that the ECU within works on wasn't it both sides of manifold pressures?<<

Meaning they both use a ECU to control the gas flow,both get there information a different way,doesn't D-gas gets its ifno from manifold pressure on the low and high pressure side?
Advantages of a liquid draw v vapor draw system is another big plus for those that 4x4.in hilly areas no stalling half way up a steep hill
I think all kits have to work in a simirler manner,to achieve this the injecting process is all that is changed, otherwise there would be lot of mini explosions everywhere

[Tweak'e]

Originally Posted by Martin from Downunder

Snip>> According to boost that the ECU within works on wasn't it both sides of manifold pressures?<<

Meaning they both use a ECU to control the gas flow,both get there information a different way,doesn't D-gas gets its ifno from manifold pressure,doesn't D-gas gets its info from manifold pressure on the low and high pressure side?

afaik they all are run by boost pressure. all read manifold pressure.
not sure what you mean by "low and high pressure side". there is only one pressure to read. the standard boost sensor location should do the job in most cases.

[D-GAS]

Hi Tweak`e

Actually WE are NOT ECOSHOT.

D-GAS and EcoGas and the same thing.

Very incestuous I know.

D-GAS and Diesel Gas are two different companies

EcoGas and EcoSHOT and two different companies

D-GAS and EcoGas (EcoGas - Diesel enhancing LPG - Diesel LPG conversions + injection Australia Environmentally Friendly Gas) are the same people




Easy sorted by pre and post turbo injection companies.

POST Turbo = D-GAS/EcoGas


Pre turbo = all the rest



PS. hehehe ... you gotta love those little smilie guys

also just so we get back on topic.

try this site: Voltran LPG

we are the distributors of this dual fuel petrol / lpg system.

Tweak, your mechanic friend is right. Gas and petrol burn rates are different so timing needs to be advanced alot for true LPG. Running a petrol engine on lpg limits its potential by a considerable amount. If you tuned the petrol engine for lpg only the power would be VERY good.

Incidentally, LPG on diesel does not need this re timing as the lpg is not the primary fuel source and not the ignition source

Hope this helps

Originally Posted by Tweak'e

orginal post was on petrol lpg conversion. looks like its gotten a little hijacked.

i wonder if D-GAS has ever looked at petrol + lpg (ie burn both at the same time).

i was taking to one of the mechanics in town. one of his customers as a V6 holden with lpg conversion. he recon the difference in econmy was to small.
his reasoning was that the motor is tuned very well for petrol, they don't run all that well on lpg. it would be better if dedicated lpg and tuned for it ie timing, cams, compression etc.
just something to keep in mind.



d-gas and eco-shot are same thing. not to be confused with ecoshot overseas.

its not just that they do it different it that one will perform better. i just don't see the point in spending a lot for a basic system when a more advanced/better system would give better results for not much more $$.

i don't know anyone with a D40 thats done it. a few guys on the AU patrol forum have. personly i think its risky doing it on a variable turbo motor, especialy if the system injects lpg according to boost.
be interesting to see how it goes

sounds crude but the proof is in the pudding.

if car is at full noise and full boost at high rmps you dont want to continue throwing in more boost as the injector pulse is still rising otherwise the gas will turn into the primary ignition source. LPG can only be put in UNTIL just before an over fuel mixture occurs. After that you get detonation (pinging)

... and ya dont want that!

I have a tech article on pinging which makes good reading. If you like I can post it here.

Re your last Q. we need to rethink things with diesel/lpg. Reason is because the gas is ONLY there to burn the UNBURNT diesel. It is not there to create more power. As the EGR valve puts in oxygen depleted air (to reduce combustion temps and therefore the harmful NOX) the gas still is able to burn the unburnt diesel until no more oxygen exists.

In fact, the lpg reduces emissions by so much that EGRs are no longer necessary. Thats nice.

This is done by burning the diesel more completely. A more complete burn actually is much greener for the environment. Good for us oxygen breathing mammals

Originally Posted by Tweak'e

so why run it off boost pressure only ?
its fairly basic and crude. by tapping into ecu/sensors you should be able to provide better performance and economy. ie matching the lpg to the diesel and not pouring in a lot when there is minimal deisel to burn. boost dosn't neccarly reflex how much fuel is being put in (mine varies from 5psi-12psi just going up/down slight rises/dips on a flat road.
should be able to match lpg soloind pulse to injector pulse, no tuning needed just straight forward match a % of lpg to diesel.

the other question is how does the lpg burn react to heavy EGR systems?

When I was chatting to a guy with a early Pathy, he told me he stripped an engine that had been on LPG from new and after 750,000 he stripped the donk only to find the engine was as clean as a whistle

Taxi regularly go to 1 mill kms and they too are crystal clean inside. LPG is like a steam cleaner


Cheers

Originally Posted by navara-au

GO FOR IT PAULY!!!!

That's right I told you to stick to your guns and get a Navara at any costs.

I had mine all booked in when they first granted the 2 grand rebate......but then I found out I couldnt get the rebate as mine is registered as a commercial car......and it was only $3200 then.

Don't know of anyone who has the V6, having it done but I'm sure there's plenty. The VQ motor is a good engine and should run OK on the gas. The last vehical I had running on gas did over 200k with out any problems, actually ran better on gas than petrol and the fuel economy wasnt much difference. Plus there are a better system now.

The problem with the tank is if you dont mount it where the spare wheel is or in the tub you wont have a very big tank so you will need to refill all the bloody time.

You will lose any warranty that can be attributed to the gas but the gas installer should have some sort of warranty????

I would run premium unleaded every third tank full to help lubricate the valves and stuff. I ran flash lube directly into the carb which might of helped.

Anyway its your decision, do some more research and get a few quotes .............and dont listen to me.

[Tweak'e]

The Vogas system with its split fuel technology is the only system that we would recommend for new vehicles with soft valves. Many manufactures have done away with alternative fuel ready engines which included special valves and seats designed to with stand valve recession caused by propane or natural gas systems. LPG and CNG is a dry fuel not capable of providing lubrication for valves. With "split fuel" the system can be programmed to run on both LPG and Gasoline at ratios from 1% LPG to 100% LPG. Controlled testing by an OEM verified that split fuel reduced valve wear to the same as that of a gasoline fueled engine. Incredibly smooth fuel change over is achieved with split fuel by phasing in LPG while reducing the percentage of gasoline. By programming with split fuel to add a small amount of gasoline under heavy load and high RPM the system over comes high end power losses suffered by conventional sequential vapor injection systems. Split fuel also allows for the use of one regulator with high horse power engines. The Vogas system is the only system on the market today that will work with GDI (direct injection) engines by allowing the gasoline injectors to function while on LPG to keep them cool and lubricated.